Peter, I have been a believer in Jesus Christ for 35 years. I believe that no one can pluck me from the hand of God. My salvation is certain, eternal and will be completed once I arrive in heaven.
Matthew 13:1-23 speaks of salvation in the parable of the sower and the seed: The parable of the sower teaches that the response to the Word of God varies among people. Some may not understand it at all, some may initially embrace it but fall away when challenged, and others may allow the Word to take root and grow in their lives. The parable emphasizes the importance of having a receptive heart to the Word of God and the need to persevere through challenges.
The Scriptures you cited support the assurance of salvation and are not heretical. Believing you can lose your salvation is not scriptural but it puts the burden of salvation on your shoulders to continue to wonder if you will go to heaven, causes you to continually work for your salvation and negates Jesus’ finished work on the Cross. “It is finished,” He said. I am certain with every fiber of my being that I will never lose my salvation. His Resurrection cemented that truth. I died to Him so I will live again. The soil the seed fell on me was good. What a relief! What a joy! The Spirit guarantees my place in heaven. My faith makes me want to please the Father. My ransom has been paid in full with the precious blood of Jesus.
Read the parable in Matthew, Mark 4:1-20, Luke 8:4-15. Let me know what you think
When reading the bible and trying to understand doctrines, it’s important to ask oneself the question: Do I want to do God’s will? Or do I want a certain verse to fit a specific doctrine? Because if you want to find support for a certain doctrine, you will most likely find verses that can be twisted to fit the doctrine. That’s one reason why there are so many different denominations within Christianity today. And that’s also why it’s so important to read everything the bible says in prayer and with an open mind.
Wesley lists up 22 undeniable points from the bible that proves salvation can be lost. And even the parable of the sower that you refer to, also proves this:
They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. (Luke 8:13)
However the bible is also clear that salvation cannot be lost by sinning, but only by a hearts decision to walk away from Jesus.
We christians should absolutely have an assurance of where we’re going to. And that’s in the assurance that Jesus lives in our hearts (2Cor 13:5) which all Christians get when they give their lives to Jesus. Not in a false doctrine that one cannot lose salvation.
Me thinks the misunderstanding is what true or real salvation is. The sower threw seeds on different kinds of soil. Only the seed thrown on good soil took. That is the soil of a true believer who cannot lose their salvation. There is no other type of salvation. You either believe or you don’t. Jesus went to great lengths to describe what true believers are. I am a true believer in Jesus Christ. I cannot lose my salvation. I have been sealed with the Spirit, Ephesians 1:13
I have examined the Bible over many years and have come to the most certain conclusion that I will never lose my salvation. You cannot die to yourself, be buried and then resurrected to sometime later lose your salvation. I have the confidence given to me by grace and faith, a gift, a covenant from God Almighty that will never perish or be taken away. He loves me completely and always. Nothing can separate me from Him!
1Jn 2:19 : “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out that they might be made manifest that none of them were of us.”
Marge, I don't believe Paul was in any way denying what you say here. His point was that you could choose to reject the Lord, in the same way that you originally chose to accept him. That you cannot be taken away from the Lord remains completely true and unaffected. I think, perhaps, the article could have been more clear.
I think you've hit the nail on the head, Liv. It's about what Mike Heiser would have called 'believing loyalty' (aka faith). It really doesn't need to be any more complicated than that.
I think you are right, Paul, that salvation CAN be rejected and that this is through the exercise of that same free will by which one originally got saved. People get confused, I think, because of various scriptures which indicate that salvation cannot be taken away; that we can never be removed from God's grasp. But the verbs are all important here. It is a completely different thing to have something TAKEN away than it is to GIVE something away. Ever the gentleman, God respects our wishes as they relate to our own lives. Of course, this is something that Calvinists inevitably struggle with. But that, as they say, is a whole other kettle of fish!
Yes. It’s important to understand that God will never take away someones salvation, because God’s gifts are irrevocable. But at the same time, God has given every one a free will and He will not force anyone to go to heaven.
Agreed, Paul, with one caveat: that Heaven is not our home. The Biblical promise is resurrection to a new heavens and a new earth. But that is incidental to what we are talking of here.
Once saved always saved is the truth. If you have it you will not lose it. The idea of losing your salvation implies that you are the one who is keeping yourself saved. How is that even possible? The Bible plainly states in First John that we all sin. Do you sin? Yes, you do. So, which sin exactly is the one that will cause you to lose it forever?
Paul plainly explains in Romans that Grace mixed with works is not grace at all. So, if you think you are saving or maintaining your salvation by your efforts, you were probably never saved, because you reject God's Grace. You are trying to save yourself by your efforts to gain it or keep it.
We are hid in Christ. Our sin is washed away. We are white as snow. If you really know Him. If you have confessed Him as Lord. Romans 10:9-10, John 5:24
As Wesley documents with 22 points from the scripture, once saved always saved is contrary to what the bible teaches. Do you really think God would force someone to go to Heaven against the persons own will, or that free will cease to exist after becoming saved?
The bible is clear that you need to have Jesus as your lord every day, and be prepared to give your life for him. That’s a heart’s decision that needs to be kept every day. The bible says "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me." (Luke 9:23) and "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26)
I’m not sure why you’re asking "which sin exactly is the one that will cause you to lose it forever?" Because the bible is clear salvation cannot be lost by sinning (otherwise we all would go to hell). But only by a heart’s decision to reject Jesus and his gift of salvation and to walk away from him.
God calls us and if we turn to Him (repent), confessing Jesus is the Lord, He saves us. Then, he works to sanctify us. God doesn't force, He calls.
You said "But only by a heart’s decision to reject Jesus and his gift of salvation and to walk away from him."
This only happens to people who have never known Him or been saved by Him. Once you know Him, you will not reject Him.
If someone walks away they never knew Him.
Paul says, "Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost."
A person must have the Holy Spirit (Recieving it the second they believed and turned to God) to confess Jesus is the Lord, and likewise, a person who has the Holy Spirit cannot call Jesus accursed.
Therefore, ANYONE who rejects Christ, has never had the Holy Spirit, and therefore was never saved. Anyone who rejects Christ, is calling God a liar, and therefore calling Jesus a lie or accursed.
This was a thought-provoking read, and I appreciate the passion behind it. The topic of "Once Saved, Always Saved" is one I’ve wrestled with personally, especially because I take salvation seriously and never want to treat grace as something cheap or casual.
I’ve come to lean toward the belief that if someone is truly born again, if they’ve genuinely experienced the grace of God and the transforming work of the Holy Spirit, then they won’t turn away. Not because they’re incapable of sin, but because God is faithful to finish the work He begins (Phil. 1:6). That said, I also believe it’s entirely possible for people to appear saved on the outside but never truly have that inner transformation, which might explain why some seem to “fall away.”
I don’t believe the “Once Saved, Always Saved” doctrine has to lead to spiritual laziness, though I agree it certainly can if misunderstood. In the same way, rejecting OSAS shouldn’t lead to constant fear of losing salvation every time we stumble. Either view, taken to extremes, misses the heart of the Gospel: that we are saved by grace, through faith, and that our lives should reflect that truth through obedience and perseverance.
I appreciate the historical references here, especially from Wesley, and I believe these kinds of discussions are important; not to divide us, but to sharpen each other as we seek to walk in truth. God bless you for putting this out there.
If someone has truly thought over the price of following Jesus as stated in Luke 14, and made a heartfelt decision to make Jesus their lord and savior, I think it’s very rare they’ll fall away.
The bible even says that it’s impossible for some to again repent if they fall away.
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Heb 6:4-6
You're absolutely right to bring up Hebrews 6. That’s one of the heaviest warnings in all of Scripture, and it’s not one I take lightly. I agree: if someone has truly counted the cost, as Jesus lays out in Luke 14, and made a surrendered decision to follow Him, it’s hard to imagine them turning away. Not because they’re perfect, but because the Spirit holds them.
I’ve always wrestled with that passage in Hebrews… whether it’s describing someone who was truly saved, or someone who came close. Enlightened, tasting the goodness, even sharing in the community, but stopped short of real surrender. Either way, the warning is real and sobering.
To me, it affirms how serious salvation is. It’s not just an emotional moment, it’s a full-life transformation. That’s why I appreciate conversations like this. They keep us sharp and rooted in reverence.
Really grateful for your reply and the way you framed it.
So then... if when we are saved by Grace, Born Again, and have been Washed in His Blood, that we are then indwelt by the HOLY SPIRIT. At which sin does the HOLY SPIRIT pack up and move out? Is there a number, past which, we are no longer saved? Or is there a sin level of severity (outside of Blasphemy of the HOLY SPIRIT, which we know is an unforgivable sin) that the SPIRIT of GOD throws up His hands and says "Now you've done it! See ya'?"
I believe that if an individual can permanently turn from the LORD GOD... they were never a Temple of the HOLY SPIRIT at all.
I believe GOD is dismayed when one of His is not living according to his ways and precepts, but I do not believe He kicks that person to the curb.
No, Liv... it is not the same as walking away from a marriage. (I read what you had to say in response to comments on Paul's opinion)
You have not been able to pinpoint the "sin" or "length of sinning" or "severity of sin" at which the indwelling HOLY SPIRIT will no longer abide in one's heart.
That is not a bad thing...but to me, it is proof that if one has TRULY been saved by Grace, that one need not wonder, when they sin (because we ALL sin) "Was that it? Did JESUS leave my heart? Is He no longer my Lord and Savior?"
The ultimate condition of one's Salvation... or lack thereof... is not so cut and dried; nor is it within our ability or responsibility.
I think "fussing" about a so-called doctrine of "Once saved - Always saved" is an exercise in futility. The LORD GOD ALMIGHTY knows... and only He knows.
It is our job... our assignment to go out and tell others the TRUTH of the Gospel. We should pray for... and with... those we desciple; but not put "warning labels" on being Born Again.
Heb 3:12-14: "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called Today; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end;"
Heb 6:4-6: "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
Exactly! It is "impossible!" Those were NEVER indwelt in the first place.
You still have not identified the sin or sin level that drives out the HOLY SPIRIT. And if the "door is locked" behind His departure from sin #?... then there is no way back from "back-sliding" and Peter was doomed after denying JESUS the Christ 3 times.
You and I do not agree. That is NOT uncommon. You must follow the leading of the HOLY SPIRIT as you hear it in your heart... and I must, as well.
We shall meet in Glory one day, and I doubt this will be discussed.
The LORD bless you and keep you in His Perfect Peace... in the Name of YESHUA, our GOD & Saviour...
You are being dishonest. Calvinism does not and never did hold a doctrine of once saved always saved. “ Once saved, always saved “ is a strawman created by those who had no answer to the Calvinist doctrine of “ Perseverance of the Saints “. Shame on you, you need to repent of lying against your brothers.
That’s an interesting way to start a conversation. Do you really think that’s something a Christian does?
I think you need to do some more research on the topic. It’s a well known fact that Calvinism has historically teached the doctrine of once saved always saved. And that the doctrine has even become synonymous with Calvinism.
Didn't you start the conversation with 'Debunking the Dangerous Doctrine...'? My understanding is that it predates Calvinism by about 1600 years. 'Do you really think that's something a Christian does?' Really?
I disagree. Calvinism, as is commonly understood, absolutely would hold to once saved always saved. I'm not sure your understanding of Calvinism concurs with mainstream theology.
I do not think he was lying, and it is in any case ungenerous to say so. I think his point was that if you are truly one of the elect, then, according to Calvinist doctrine, you will certainly remain saved. After all, its predestined. The trouble is that you cannot really know if you are one of the elect. You have to just proceed on that assumption, hoping that you will not turn away in the end.
What else can one call it? He has implied that “ once saved, always saved “ is a Calvinist doctrine. This is a lie, repeating a lie makes one a liar. And as to knowing if ones self is truly saved , the just shall live by faith. Just as you received the Lord Jesus, walk in him. And we walk by faith not by sight. So that same faith that embraces Lord Jesus sustains us in Him.
There's a difference between a lie and a misinterpretation. To call a Christian brother a liar is no light matter, I'd suggest. He could be wrong but that doesn't mean he intended to deceive.
I avoid dabbling in things that don't concern me, try not to answer hypothetical questions that really aren't "first person"- for instance, I'd never address the issue "what about those who haven't heard- because the very act of asking the question shows that they have.
Regarding this issue, people sin more than they realize, and I'm convinced certain ones will be forgiven although they've often sinned very greatly. I'd suggest ones who assume they can lose their salvation don't realize they'd been sinning all along, but suddenly it seemed to get much worse and now they feel guilty about it.
Also, people think, in error, that they're saved, really, because of something they did. Not that they think they earned it: but somehow they now deserve it. They forget that it took an incredible amount of planning, sacrifice, and outright suffering for Jesus to die for us. I'm reminded of the verse that mentions "no-one can snatch them out of my hand." We sometimes forget how powerful God is. The notion we could lose salvation implies the one who bought it for us really isn't all that powerful in the first place, and it really wasn't that big of a deal.
Perseverance of the saints is not the same thing as once saved always saved. True faith will produce obedience. But our obedience is imperfect, which is why there is grace. As Hebrews 2:15 teaches, salvation delivers us from the fear of death, which means assurance is biblical.
Salvation assurance is totally biblical. But not once saved always saved. A true assurance is the one that comes when you give your life to Jesus, that Jesus lives inside of you (2Cor 13:5).
I disagree with this. If we could lose our salvation we would do. If you are born again you cannot die again- otherwise the life is not eternal. Contrary to your argument, this is not a doctrine that leads to licence to sin- rather as is clearly taught by James and John those that continue in sin are not saved. If you see someone saying I can carry on in this sin because I'm saved that's a pretty good sign that they are not saved. They don't need warning that they could lose their salvation they need warning that they are heading for hell already.
You disagree with every single one of Wesley’s 22 points proving that salvation can be lost?
My experience with people who believe in eternal security are that they are casual and don’t care if they sin or not because they think heaven is secured. I do agree with what you say that those who live like that most like aren’t saved.
But what I also notice is that most people who believe in this doctrine, don’t have true salvation assurance like described in 2Cor 13:5. And they seem to try and use eternal security as a kind of false assurance, when in reality they haven’t been truly saved.
You are right to caution against false assurance. However, the idea that a born again believer can lose their salvation is extremely problematic. Firstly, we would have to consider the mechanism of how one could lose one's salvation. Presumably the answer would be that salvation can be lost by sinning but then we all sin constantly so either we all constantly lose our salvation or we need to place a limit so that it isn't just sin but a particular type of sin that leads to salvation being lost- this is again problematic because the Bible doesn't at all treat sin in this way- all sin is exceedingly wicked so why would one type be treated differently to another. Possibly, you might argue it isn't the type of sin but rather a sin being done deliberately (as opposed to in ignorance) that leads to salvation being lost but again this doesn't really help because we are all guilty of willful sin as well. So finally you arrive at well OK the only way you can lose your salvation is persistent unrepentant sin but, to my earlier point, persistent unrepentant sin means you were never saved to begin with so you had no salvation to lose.
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2Tim 3:16)
"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." (Gal 1:8)
Some good thoughts there. However you have limited the salvation plan of God to a false understanding of the second resurrection where all who were never called to repentance will be given their opportunity to do so.
Which is expressed here in part.
you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. 1Cor 5:5.
Peter, I have been a believer in Jesus Christ for 35 years. I believe that no one can pluck me from the hand of God. My salvation is certain, eternal and will be completed once I arrive in heaven.
Matthew 13:1-23 speaks of salvation in the parable of the sower and the seed: The parable of the sower teaches that the response to the Word of God varies among people. Some may not understand it at all, some may initially embrace it but fall away when challenged, and others may allow the Word to take root and grow in their lives. The parable emphasizes the importance of having a receptive heart to the Word of God and the need to persevere through challenges.
The Scriptures you cited support the assurance of salvation and are not heretical. Believing you can lose your salvation is not scriptural but it puts the burden of salvation on your shoulders to continue to wonder if you will go to heaven, causes you to continually work for your salvation and negates Jesus’ finished work on the Cross. “It is finished,” He said. I am certain with every fiber of my being that I will never lose my salvation. His Resurrection cemented that truth. I died to Him so I will live again. The soil the seed fell on me was good. What a relief! What a joy! The Spirit guarantees my place in heaven. My faith makes me want to please the Father. My ransom has been paid in full with the precious blood of Jesus.
Read the parable in Matthew, Mark 4:1-20, Luke 8:4-15. Let me know what you think
When reading the bible and trying to understand doctrines, it’s important to ask oneself the question: Do I want to do God’s will? Or do I want a certain verse to fit a specific doctrine? Because if you want to find support for a certain doctrine, you will most likely find verses that can be twisted to fit the doctrine. That’s one reason why there are so many different denominations within Christianity today. And that’s also why it’s so important to read everything the bible says in prayer and with an open mind.
Wesley lists up 22 undeniable points from the bible that proves salvation can be lost. And even the parable of the sower that you refer to, also proves this:
They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. (Luke 8:13)
However the bible is also clear that salvation cannot be lost by sinning, but only by a hearts decision to walk away from Jesus.
We christians should absolutely have an assurance of where we’re going to. And that’s in the assurance that Jesus lives in our hearts (2Cor 13:5) which all Christians get when they give their lives to Jesus. Not in a false doctrine that one cannot lose salvation.
Me thinks the misunderstanding is what true or real salvation is. The sower threw seeds on different kinds of soil. Only the seed thrown on good soil took. That is the soil of a true believer who cannot lose their salvation. There is no other type of salvation. You either believe or you don’t. Jesus went to great lengths to describe what true believers are. I am a true believer in Jesus Christ. I cannot lose my salvation. I have been sealed with the Spirit, Ephesians 1:13
I have examined the Bible over many years and have come to the most certain conclusion that I will never lose my salvation. You cannot die to yourself, be buried and then resurrected to sometime later lose your salvation. I have the confidence given to me by grace and faith, a gift, a covenant from God Almighty that will never perish or be taken away. He loves me completely and always. Nothing can separate me from Him!
1Jn 2:19 : “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out that they might be made manifest that none of them were of us.”
Marge, I don't believe Paul was in any way denying what you say here. His point was that you could choose to reject the Lord, in the same way that you originally chose to accept him. That you cannot be taken away from the Lord remains completely true and unaffected. I think, perhaps, the article could have been more clear.
You cannot lose what you never had
Excellent
When I was young in the 80's and 90's, there was not a single denomination that I knew of that believed one time saved always saved.
And I am puzzled to see that it is such a widespread belief now.
Do we ever say one time married always married?
Of course not.
There must be an ongoing commitment to each other every day, have a faithful heart towards our spouse every day, or else it is headed for trouble.
In the same way we must have a heartfelt commitment to Jesus.
Heb 3:12-14 says:
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end;
In Prov 4: 23 it warnes us to:
Keep thy heart with all diligence..
To stay saved is all about having a 100% commited, faithful heart to Jesus .
This truth is so simple, yet made so complicated these days..
I think you've hit the nail on the head, Liv. It's about what Mike Heiser would have called 'believing loyalty' (aka faith). It really doesn't need to be any more complicated than that.
Peter, all this is really well thought out & scripted!
Thanks. Btw Peter is my brother :)
I think you are right, Paul, that salvation CAN be rejected and that this is through the exercise of that same free will by which one originally got saved. People get confused, I think, because of various scriptures which indicate that salvation cannot be taken away; that we can never be removed from God's grasp. But the verbs are all important here. It is a completely different thing to have something TAKEN away than it is to GIVE something away. Ever the gentleman, God respects our wishes as they relate to our own lives. Of course, this is something that Calvinists inevitably struggle with. But that, as they say, is a whole other kettle of fish!
Yes. It’s important to understand that God will never take away someones salvation, because God’s gifts are irrevocable. But at the same time, God has given every one a free will and He will not force anyone to go to heaven.
Agreed, Paul, with one caveat: that Heaven is not our home. The Biblical promise is resurrection to a new heavens and a new earth. But that is incidental to what we are talking of here.
Once saved always saved is the truth. If you have it you will not lose it. The idea of losing your salvation implies that you are the one who is keeping yourself saved. How is that even possible? The Bible plainly states in First John that we all sin. Do you sin? Yes, you do. So, which sin exactly is the one that will cause you to lose it forever?
Paul plainly explains in Romans that Grace mixed with works is not grace at all. So, if you think you are saving or maintaining your salvation by your efforts, you were probably never saved, because you reject God's Grace. You are trying to save yourself by your efforts to gain it or keep it.
We are hid in Christ. Our sin is washed away. We are white as snow. If you really know Him. If you have confessed Him as Lord. Romans 10:9-10, John 5:24
As Wesley documents with 22 points from the scripture, once saved always saved is contrary to what the bible teaches. Do you really think God would force someone to go to Heaven against the persons own will, or that free will cease to exist after becoming saved?
The bible is clear that you need to have Jesus as your lord every day, and be prepared to give your life for him. That’s a heart’s decision that needs to be kept every day. The bible says "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me." (Luke 9:23) and "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26)
I’m not sure why you’re asking "which sin exactly is the one that will cause you to lose it forever?" Because the bible is clear salvation cannot be lost by sinning (otherwise we all would go to hell). But only by a heart’s decision to reject Jesus and his gift of salvation and to walk away from him.
I go by the Word and the Holy Spirit.
God calls us and if we turn to Him (repent), confessing Jesus is the Lord, He saves us. Then, he works to sanctify us. God doesn't force, He calls.
You said "But only by a heart’s decision to reject Jesus and his gift of salvation and to walk away from him."
This only happens to people who have never known Him or been saved by Him. Once you know Him, you will not reject Him.
If someone walks away they never knew Him.
Paul says, "Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost."
A person must have the Holy Spirit (Recieving it the second they believed and turned to God) to confess Jesus is the Lord, and likewise, a person who has the Holy Spirit cannot call Jesus accursed.
Therefore, ANYONE who rejects Christ, has never had the Holy Spirit, and therefore was never saved. Anyone who rejects Christ, is calling God a liar, and therefore calling Jesus a lie or accursed.
You can't lose it, if you have it.
This was a thought-provoking read, and I appreciate the passion behind it. The topic of "Once Saved, Always Saved" is one I’ve wrestled with personally, especially because I take salvation seriously and never want to treat grace as something cheap or casual.
I’ve come to lean toward the belief that if someone is truly born again, if they’ve genuinely experienced the grace of God and the transforming work of the Holy Spirit, then they won’t turn away. Not because they’re incapable of sin, but because God is faithful to finish the work He begins (Phil. 1:6). That said, I also believe it’s entirely possible for people to appear saved on the outside but never truly have that inner transformation, which might explain why some seem to “fall away.”
I don’t believe the “Once Saved, Always Saved” doctrine has to lead to spiritual laziness, though I agree it certainly can if misunderstood. In the same way, rejecting OSAS shouldn’t lead to constant fear of losing salvation every time we stumble. Either view, taken to extremes, misses the heart of the Gospel: that we are saved by grace, through faith, and that our lives should reflect that truth through obedience and perseverance.
I appreciate the historical references here, especially from Wesley, and I believe these kinds of discussions are important; not to divide us, but to sharpen each other as we seek to walk in truth. God bless you for putting this out there.
If someone has truly thought over the price of following Jesus as stated in Luke 14, and made a heartfelt decision to make Jesus their lord and savior, I think it’s very rare they’ll fall away.
The bible even says that it’s impossible for some to again repent if they fall away.
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Heb 6:4-6
You're absolutely right to bring up Hebrews 6. That’s one of the heaviest warnings in all of Scripture, and it’s not one I take lightly. I agree: if someone has truly counted the cost, as Jesus lays out in Luke 14, and made a surrendered decision to follow Him, it’s hard to imagine them turning away. Not because they’re perfect, but because the Spirit holds them.
I’ve always wrestled with that passage in Hebrews… whether it’s describing someone who was truly saved, or someone who came close. Enlightened, tasting the goodness, even sharing in the community, but stopped short of real surrender. Either way, the warning is real and sobering.
To me, it affirms how serious salvation is. It’s not just an emotional moment, it’s a full-life transformation. That’s why I appreciate conversations like this. They keep us sharp and rooted in reverence.
Really grateful for your reply and the way you framed it.
So then... if when we are saved by Grace, Born Again, and have been Washed in His Blood, that we are then indwelt by the HOLY SPIRIT. At which sin does the HOLY SPIRIT pack up and move out? Is there a number, past which, we are no longer saved? Or is there a sin level of severity (outside of Blasphemy of the HOLY SPIRIT, which we know is an unforgivable sin) that the SPIRIT of GOD throws up His hands and says "Now you've done it! See ya'?"
I believe that if an individual can permanently turn from the LORD GOD... they were never a Temple of the HOLY SPIRIT at all.
I believe GOD is dismayed when one of His is not living according to his ways and precepts, but I do not believe He kicks that person to the curb.
Hi Kathryn.
God never throws us out. But he gave us a free will. And He will never force anyone to stay if they want to leave.
It is the same as a marriage. If one part decides to go the other part can't stop it. It doesn't mean they were never married in the first place.
No, Liv... it is not the same as walking away from a marriage. (I read what you had to say in response to comments on Paul's opinion)
You have not been able to pinpoint the "sin" or "length of sinning" or "severity of sin" at which the indwelling HOLY SPIRIT will no longer abide in one's heart.
That is not a bad thing...but to me, it is proof that if one has TRULY been saved by Grace, that one need not wonder, when they sin (because we ALL sin) "Was that it? Did JESUS leave my heart? Is He no longer my Lord and Savior?"
The ultimate condition of one's Salvation... or lack thereof... is not so cut and dried; nor is it within our ability or responsibility.
I think "fussing" about a so-called doctrine of "Once saved - Always saved" is an exercise in futility. The LORD GOD ALMIGHTY knows... and only He knows.
It is our job... our assignment to go out and tell others the TRUTH of the Gospel. We should pray for... and with... those we desciple; but not put "warning labels" on being Born Again.
Sounds like you are trying to convince yourself.
Maybe to some degree... I wouldn't be so bold as to think only I am correct.
But I know what I believe and that I believe it to be correct.
However, I have walked with the LORD for 48 years, and I'm not 'concerned' about questionable doctrine as to backsliding and losing one's Salvation.
Scripture warns us not to get caught up in arguments.
I know I am saved! (all the GLORY to GOD!) and I know how I was saved, when I was saved... and what to tell others about how to be saved.
So... perhaps I'm trying to convince YOU!😂
Don't worry this is what I believe:
Heb 3:12-14: "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called Today; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end;"
Heb 6:4-6: "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
Exactly! It is "impossible!" Those were NEVER indwelt in the first place.
You still have not identified the sin or sin level that drives out the HOLY SPIRIT. And if the "door is locked" behind His departure from sin #?... then there is no way back from "back-sliding" and Peter was doomed after denying JESUS the Christ 3 times.
You and I do not agree. That is NOT uncommon. You must follow the leading of the HOLY SPIRIT as you hear it in your heart... and I must, as well.
We shall meet in Glory one day, and I doubt this will be discussed.
The LORD bless you and keep you in His Perfect Peace... in the Name of YESHUA, our GOD & Saviour...
Amen
You are being dishonest. Calvinism does not and never did hold a doctrine of once saved always saved. “ Once saved, always saved “ is a strawman created by those who had no answer to the Calvinist doctrine of “ Perseverance of the Saints “. Shame on you, you need to repent of lying against your brothers.
That’s an interesting way to start a conversation. Do you really think that’s something a Christian does?
I think you need to do some more research on the topic. It’s a well known fact that Calvinism has historically teached the doctrine of once saved always saved. And that the doctrine has even become synonymous with Calvinism.
Didn't you start the conversation with 'Debunking the Dangerous Doctrine...'? My understanding is that it predates Calvinism by about 1600 years. 'Do you really think that's something a Christian does?' Really?
I disagree. Calvinism, as is commonly understood, absolutely would hold to once saved always saved. I'm not sure your understanding of Calvinism concurs with mainstream theology.
I do not think he was lying, and it is in any case ungenerous to say so. I think his point was that if you are truly one of the elect, then, according to Calvinist doctrine, you will certainly remain saved. After all, its predestined. The trouble is that you cannot really know if you are one of the elect. You have to just proceed on that assumption, hoping that you will not turn away in the end.
What else can one call it? He has implied that “ once saved, always saved “ is a Calvinist doctrine. This is a lie, repeating a lie makes one a liar. And as to knowing if ones self is truly saved , the just shall live by faith. Just as you received the Lord Jesus, walk in him. And we walk by faith not by sight. So that same faith that embraces Lord Jesus sustains us in Him.
There's a difference between a lie and a misinterpretation. To call a Christian brother a liar is no light matter, I'd suggest. He could be wrong but that doesn't mean he intended to deceive.
You sound like a politician convoluting
So you don't think intentions matter?
Very well articulated. We never lose our “free will” otherwise it wouldn’t be true surrender and worship.
I avoid dabbling in things that don't concern me, try not to answer hypothetical questions that really aren't "first person"- for instance, I'd never address the issue "what about those who haven't heard- because the very act of asking the question shows that they have.
Regarding this issue, people sin more than they realize, and I'm convinced certain ones will be forgiven although they've often sinned very greatly. I'd suggest ones who assume they can lose their salvation don't realize they'd been sinning all along, but suddenly it seemed to get much worse and now they feel guilty about it.
Also, people think, in error, that they're saved, really, because of something they did. Not that they think they earned it: but somehow they now deserve it. They forget that it took an incredible amount of planning, sacrifice, and outright suffering for Jesus to die for us. I'm reminded of the verse that mentions "no-one can snatch them out of my hand." We sometimes forget how powerful God is. The notion we could lose salvation implies the one who bought it for us really isn't all that powerful in the first place, and it really wasn't that big of a deal.
Perseverance of the saints is not the same thing as once saved always saved. True faith will produce obedience. But our obedience is imperfect, which is why there is grace. As Hebrews 2:15 teaches, salvation delivers us from the fear of death, which means assurance is biblical.
Salvation assurance is totally biblical. But not once saved always saved. A true assurance is the one that comes when you give your life to Jesus, that Jesus lives inside of you (2Cor 13:5).
My appreciation of the parents Immanuelsen. Their boys are a credit to them. Train up a child....
I disagree with this. If we could lose our salvation we would do. If you are born again you cannot die again- otherwise the life is not eternal. Contrary to your argument, this is not a doctrine that leads to licence to sin- rather as is clearly taught by James and John those that continue in sin are not saved. If you see someone saying I can carry on in this sin because I'm saved that's a pretty good sign that they are not saved. They don't need warning that they could lose their salvation they need warning that they are heading for hell already.
You disagree with every single one of Wesley’s 22 points proving that salvation can be lost?
My experience with people who believe in eternal security are that they are casual and don’t care if they sin or not because they think heaven is secured. I do agree with what you say that those who live like that most like aren’t saved.
But what I also notice is that most people who believe in this doctrine, don’t have true salvation assurance like described in 2Cor 13:5. And they seem to try and use eternal security as a kind of false assurance, when in reality they haven’t been truly saved.
You are right to caution against false assurance. However, the idea that a born again believer can lose their salvation is extremely problematic. Firstly, we would have to consider the mechanism of how one could lose one's salvation. Presumably the answer would be that salvation can be lost by sinning but then we all sin constantly so either we all constantly lose our salvation or we need to place a limit so that it isn't just sin but a particular type of sin that leads to salvation being lost- this is again problematic because the Bible doesn't at all treat sin in this way- all sin is exceedingly wicked so why would one type be treated differently to another. Possibly, you might argue it isn't the type of sin but rather a sin being done deliberately (as opposed to in ignorance) that leads to salvation being lost but again this doesn't really help because we are all guilty of willful sin as well. So finally you arrive at well OK the only way you can lose your salvation is persistent unrepentant sin but, to my earlier point, persistent unrepentant sin means you were never saved to begin with so you had no salvation to lose.
I agree with that but the sola scriptura doctrine is just as harmful
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2Tim 3:16)
"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." (Gal 1:8)
https://open.substack.com/pub/bridgetograce/p/lost-in-translation?r=5h8n5b&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=false
I agree!
Some good thoughts there. However you have limited the salvation plan of God to a false understanding of the second resurrection where all who were never called to repentance will be given their opportunity to do so.
Which is expressed here in part.
you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. 1Cor 5:5.
Excellent